Basic Questions on VirtualMin,WebMin,UserMin

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#1 Thu, 07/02/2009 - 15:41
JosephV

Basic Questions on VirtualMin,WebMin,UserMin

Hello,

Pretty much a newb and have revisited this site and product a few times. However living the Microsoft lifestyle has my head in a way that is hard to get wrapped around this dynamic of Linux and Virtualmin.

I am doing much better now :)

If I could ask some basic questions that would help me greatly I would be very apprecialtive.

what I am trying to decipher is probably terminology vs MS terminology. So here goes.

What is a Virtual Server? Is that a website/domain that is provisioned for hosting? In IIS this is a website. What do you use to set this up...Webmin or Virtualmin? What is the login to CPanel equivalent for Virtualmin login is that Usermin or VirtualMin? or Webmin?

Is Webmin strictly for the root user of the server?

Let me explain what I want to do and this might help also.

I want to use this linux server as a Web server and MySQL server only. what would be the procedure to setup a hosting plan in Virtualmin for this please.

e.g

  1. Login Webmin
  2. Create plan or Virtual server (not sure)
  3. Create users

Thank you Joseph

Thu, 07/02/2009 - 20:48
Joe
Joe's picture

What is a Virtual Server? Is that a website/domain that is provisioned for hosting? In IIS this is a website. What do you use to set this up...Webmin or Virtualmin?

Correct. A virtual server in Virtualmin is made up of a system and Webmin user account, a VirtualHost in Apache, a virtual domain in Postfix, a zone in BIND, and one or more databases in MySQL and/or PostgreSQL (confused yet?). When you create a virtual server, you're creating a set of configuration options in all of these services that provides a connected set of capabilities to your customer or user. It is a "website" plus all of the stuff that is needed to make it useful for the full "I have a website" experience...mail, DNS, databases, directories for code and HTML, etc.

Webmin is the basis on which Virtualmin is built. It is a general purpose web-based UI for Linux and UNIX systems management. It is not intended to make virtual hosting "easy" or automatic. Virtualmin, which is a term that covers a bunch of Webmin modules and a custom theme, is the tool you want for managing virtual hosting accounts. If you want "websites", you want Virtualmin (running on top of Webmin). If you just want to be a system administrator that doesn't deal with virtual hosting, you want Webmin. Sounds like you definitely want Virtualmin, and Webmin by itself would just confuse you and make your life difficult.

What is the login to CPanel equivalent for Virtualmin login is that Usermin or VirtualMin? or Webmin?

Usermin is a webmail client. It is not in any way equivalent to anything cPanel does (though it does happen to have database management and a few other nifty features beyond being a mere webmail client). When you login to Virtualmin, you are logging into Webmin. Virtualmin is a module of Webmin.

So the equivalent to both cPanel and WHM is logging into Virtualmin. If your user is a virtual server account user, it'll provide the same sorts of capabilities as cPanel. If your user is an administrative level user (root), you will have the full power of Virtualmin and Webmin (which is roughly comparable to WHM, though Virtualmin/Webmin has a lot more capabilities; Webmin alone has 113 standard modules for administering nearly every aspect of a Linux or UNIX system).

Is Webmin strictly for the root user of the server?

No. Webmin is the platform on which everything Virtualmin-related is built. Virtual server account holders login to Webmin to perform any administrative tasks (like creating mailboxes, editing databases, etc.).

1. Login Webmin 2. Create plan or Virtual server (not sure) 3. Create users

We can't tell you whether you want to create a plan or a virtual server! Which one do you want? ;-)

A plan is what it sounds like, and pretty much the same as on cPanel. You set limits in a plan, and those limits can the be easily applied to new or existing virtual servers.

A virtual server is an account (a "website" with all the accoutrement).

For choosing which features are available, you'd probably start in the Features and Plugins page. From there, you might go to Server Templates, to get more specific. These don't really have equivalents on cPanel...Virtualmin is quite a bit more flexible in these areas. With Server Templates, you could have one template that allows only web and MySQL, and another that allows web, mail, MySQL, BIND, etc. But if you know you only want web and MySQL, you should just disable the stuff you don't want in Features and Plugins.

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Fri, 07/03/2009 - 09:50 (Reply to #2)
JosephV

Hello Joe,

Thanks for hanging in there with me. :) That helped tremendously. So I have reached this point so far

  1. Login Virualmin and decide what you are going to offer Mail,MySQL, Apache SSH FTP etc...
  2. Make a Hosting plan
  3. Create the Virtual Server

I have successfully been able to do this and host 2 old html sites to test my skills (gasp!)

Now what is a concern of mine is....

  1. I noticed after logging in as one of the Virtual Server accounts I can see Running Processes and other stuff that is escaping my memory at the moment.
  2. What should I not let a general hosting client NOT be able to access that would put the Maint Server in jeopardy?

  3. I notice the "Automatic" in the creation section while creating. Is this a good idea?

And yes you are completey right. I would get very confused if all I had was Webmin.

And Dim you are correct. Great Stuff this Virtualmin MS SPLA's are a tough nut to crack each month.

Thanks Joe, Joseph

Fri, 07/03/2009 - 10:06 (Reply to #3)
andreychek

I noticed after logging in as one of the Virtual Server accounts I can see Running Processes and other stuff that is escaping my memory at the moment. / What should I not let a general hosting client NOT be able to access that would put the Maint Server in jeopardy

Well, thus is the nature of shared hosting.

Everyone will be able to see all the running processes -- the key is what a given user can do (or moreso, not do) with them -- and that should generally be just about nothing :-)

Similar with files on the server -- to an extent, a user can browse around the filesystem, but Linux permissions prevent a user from accessing or executing files they shouldn't have rights to.

So, the existing permissions system is pretty good. Two additional thoughts there would be --

  1. One of the most common ways systems are compromised is that outside attackers break into web applications that are out of date, or through unpatched vulnerabilities. Simply keeping up security updates for your system and the web apps you're running will go a long ways to keeping your system secure.

  2. If any users require more security (or flexibility) than you can offer on a shared system, there's always the option of setting up a virtual private server (VPS) using a tool like Xen or EC2, and the like. That is, a given user would have their own little slice of a server, running their own Linux distro, and with full root access, that no one else could see. This is what services like Linode, Slicehost, and Amazon's EC2 are providing. And Virtualmin, Inc just happens to provide a product to assist in managing these tools -- called Cloudmin :-)

I notice the "Automatic" in the creation section while creating. Is this a good idea?

Hmm, where is that "automatic" you're seeing?

If you're referring to where it says "Administrator username" -- automatic in that case means that it creates an administrator login name based on the domain name of the account.

The "Automatic" in that case is purely a default, it's no problem to manually add in your preferred username.

Have a good one!

-Eric

Fri, 07/03/2009 - 10:48 (Reply to #4)
JosephV

Hello Eric,

Thanks for the help here this is all getting much clearer.

In Windows you cannot see these processes that is why I asked. You do not have access to the server that way. I was quite surprised when I did see them in Linux.

As for the "Automatic" it is in the ROOT login to Virtualmin and under Sytem Settings >> Accounnt Plans

Look under "Allowed Virtual Server Features" and "Allowed Capabilities"

If there is a way to hide some menu items in the customer admin section like the "Running Processes" that would be great!

Thank you Eric Joseph

Fri, 07/03/2009 - 13:59 (Reply to #5)
andreychek

Actually, as I look through the "Running Processes" module, it appears to only allow you to see the processes you own.

It's not allowing me to see processes owned by other users or the system, just ones owned by the Virtual Server owner.

Are you seeing different results than that?

As far as the "Automatic" for the features and capabilities in the Account Plans -- it can be tricky determining what all those options do. Joe and Jamie try to pick sane defaults, but we'd certainly encourage you to through those and enable/disable the options that work best for you on your system.

What "Automatic" means in that case is that it tries to determine what you'd want, based on other limits that are setup throughout the Server Templates and Account Plans.

For example, there's a capability called "Can manage aliases?".

Just above that in the Account Plan details, is an option named "Limit on number of aliases". If the limit was set to 0 (meaning there are no aliases allowed), the "Automatic" setting would assume that the Virtual Server owner isn't allows to manage aliases, and won't display the option.

That's just one simple example -- there's similar options scattered around the Server Templates and Account Plans.

Does that help?

-Eric

Fri, 07/03/2009 - 15:15 (Reply to #6)
JosephV

Hello Eric, Thanks again yes this was a tremendous help.

So a Server Template is the services available for the plans resources...Correct? The account plan is for the what as a host would provison for that plan.

Ok I think I got that ;) pheewww

I didn't realize that the processes were only for that admin Virtual Server. Thanks for showing me that (my lack of experinece in Linux) that is great I feel better now :)

Ok, so I really see a few small clafifications to get for just hosting websites in Linux and Vmin.

  1. So where would you suggest that I set the limit or restriction to only allow a customer two TLD's and two sub-domain sites?

that is it!

Thanks Joseph

Fri, 07/03/2009 - 01:53
Dim Git

JosephV,

Sounds like you and I are in a similar position.

From what you have said, it sounds like you have a Linux box on which you want to host a number of domains/websites.

I have no question in my mind that Webmin/Virtualmin is the way to go. Installation was a breeze and it worked right out of the box (mine was from a fresh install of Centos 5).

There were a couple of things I didn't find very intuitive, probably as a result of my inexperience. One example was setting up the secondary name servers to be added automatically to each new virtual server at creation time. I was manually adding it via Bind for each. Now I have seen the light, easy. I must add that I can't criticise this, because I cannot think of a way it could be made easier. :-)

One last point, and it is a BIGGIE. The help in this forum has been brilliant. Very tolerant of dumb questions, and welcoming too. Thanks guys.

Fri, 07/03/2009 - 18:25
ronald
ronald's picture

If I may I would recommend to create a virtual server and log in as that user. See what you can and can not do, compare that to the master admin. Having two tabs open in your firefox browser

It gives a good feel as to what you want to give to future clients. test test test and test before letting anyone on there. You need the knowledge to be able to reply to support tickets when they come (and they will come)

Fri, 07/03/2009 - 18:33 (Reply to #9)
Joe
Joe's picture

Note that most browsers don't support separate sessions across tabs. So, your login will follow you around between tabs. So, it's not really easy to do a side-by-side in one browser window. I know I remember reading about at least one browser that does support different sessions in different tabs, but I don't remember which one. ;-)

But, yes, it's definitely worth looking at a virtual server login, now and then, so you know what your users are seeing.

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Fri, 07/03/2009 - 18:45 (Reply to #10)
JosephV

Hello Ronald and Joe

Thanks for the advice I have done this and I was poking around quite a bit. however I am having the terminology issues.

Let me put it this way... What is a sub-domain in Virtualmin? How do you allow it or disallow the number of sub-domains. How do you allow the number of Domains allowed to be created in Vmin?

In my mind if a Virtual Server admin has the ability to create another Virtual Server then that is the ability to create another website? So in my Windows hosting I set a plan that allows 2 domains and 2 subdomains this customer can create two domains an two subdomains. They can choose 2 subs for one domain or one sub per domain.

How is this done in VMin? Please see screenshot attached

Yes I do agree that I need the knowledge for the support..and yes they come now for Windows alot

Thanks Joseph

Fri, 07/03/2009 - 19:16 (Reply to #11)
Joe
Joe's picture

A sub-domain is just a name. Virtualmin refuses to buy into the fiction that a "sub-domain" has any meaning for a tool of its caliber. ;-)

Set the limit on the number of virtual servers; which will allow the user to create some number of "sub-servers".

If you really like the idea of a sub-domain being magical, you can then restrict the user to only creating names that are under the parent domain (forcing them to have a "subdomain" name). But that doesn't allow the separation of "domain" and "subdomain".

So, you can limit to four "domains" total, or you can limit to one "domain" and three "sub-domains". But you can't do "two domains and two subdomains". That's really weird, by the way. Why do you care what they name their virtual servers? I know cPanel has a special sub-domain account type, and we had one of those in Virtualmin for a couple of years, but we killed it off because it was hateful and confusing to anyone who had never used cPanel. We also think treating domain names as something special is silly and arbitrary and we don't like silly and arbitrary stuff like that. We are occasionally opinionated. ;-)

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Fri, 07/03/2009 - 21:16 (Reply to #12)
JosephV

"That's really weird, by the way. Why do you care what they name their virtual servers? "

Joe you are right I do not care what anyone names their domains or servers in this case. Also seeing that there is a little miscommunication on my part too. I have used cPanel very little and I am not comparing Virtualmin to that panel. I come from a different school of thought for example.

Let's look at the Linux world vs The MS world in networking. In MS they are taught that DNAT is Dynamic NAT and in Linux, Cisco, Vyatta (Open Source) it is Denstination NAT. Same ....eh? - no. But perception and terminology get it twisted up. However, sitting across a table talking about it sounds great until you have to do the routing. Until you both get on the same page, no one is going to be routed.

I am new and learning the terminology and a different school of thought so I am not trying to cause a rift by saying some things that sound rediculous. This is exaclty how Windows hosting is done ( and I guess cPanel too to some degree) so that being said. I am learning otherwise in your world.

I call it a subdomain and I didn't know that it was something different and that a sub-server is Maybe the same thing. I will continue to learn and listen to what you guys have to say to become better.

So what I will do now is login under a Owner of the Virtual Server and see what happens when I try to create other things?

Also I think that Virtualmin is an awesome piece of work thank you for sharing :)

That is fine that your opinionated :) I just thank you for helping me.

Joseph

Sun, 07/05/2009 - 18:11 (Reply to #13)
Joe
Joe's picture

Joe you are right I do not care what anyone names their domains or servers in this case. Also seeing that there is a little miscommunication on my part too. I have used cPanel very little and I am not comparing Virtualmin to that panel. I come from a different school of thought for example.

I'm just kidding around. I know there has been a tendency in the industry in the past to treat "subdomains" and "domains" as somehow different. cPanel has a stripped down website type called "subdomain" that has a weird directory layout and pretty much no features. I could never figure out why it would ever be a good idea to use such a weird layout or why any user would ever choose to have such a limited type of website. And I could never figure out how it made sense for hosting providers to support so many different kinds of website (because the misuse of the term "subdomain" to mean two very different things confused our users, who tend to be quite technical, and I can't even imagine how much human capital has been wasted trying to support non-technical users with such weird arbitrary limitations), so we turned "sub-domain" account types off altogether. So, in Virtualmin a "subdomain" means only one thing: a name.

I call it a subdomain and I didn't know that it was something different and that a sub-server is Maybe the same thing.

A subdomain is a name.

A sub-server is a virtual server that is owned by an existing virtual server. It can be named anything you want. Though as the administrator, you can force those names to be subdomain names; but this is just an arbitrary restriction that some people wanted to be able to impose; names, whether they are second level (virtualmin.com), a subdomain (sub.virtualmin.com), a sub-sub-domain (sub.sub.virtualmin.com), and so on, are not special to Virtualmin.

To maybe make it even more clear that names do not matter to Virtualmin, I'll point out that a virtual server named sub.domain.tld could be the parent of a sub-server named domain.tld. So, the "subdomain" would be the main account, and the "domain" would be a sub-server of it.

As long as you don't try to make names mean anything other than "a name for this virtual server or subserver", it will all be completely clear.

So what I will do now is login under a Owner of the Virtual Server and see what happens when I try to create other things?

Sure, why not? You can always delete things if you don't like how you lay things out the first time. We definitely encourage you to experiment. It is actually all pretty simple, but it can look very intimidating at first because Virtualmin does so many things. And don't even look at the Webmin menu to start with because it's got several thousand pages of forms hiding behind it, for managing all sorts of weird and wild UNIX stuff. Virtualmin is just the tip of the iceberg.

Don't be afraid to poke around. Note also that Virtualmin has nearly complete online help. Nearly every option is clickable. Click it, and up pops a help window describing what the option does.

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